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Bob Smith
5th November 2005, 19:06
I was watching World Rally Championship event from Spain last weekend and that some pretty cool driving evenif their not racing head to headIt got me wondering why there's no event in the U.S. I mean it could be held in a different part of the country every year. I was also wondering if the Ford focus has any Mazda parts in it?
Big Ern
5th November 2005, 19:33
I was watching World Rally Championship event from Spain last weekend and that some pretty cool driving evenif their not racing head to headIt got me wondering why there's no event in the U.S. I mean it could be held in a different part of the country every year. I was also wondering if the Ford focus has any Mazda parts in it?
They were shooting to get an event held around Chattanooga TN a few years ago but that fell though. I think it is primarily due to liability issues and secondly for the NASCAR mentality that pervades the country (maybe thirdly for environmental concerns). They did add an event in Mexico although so far it has been pretty far south so still quite a haul.
aruba
5th November 2005, 19:50
Also, most of the cars represented in the WRC are not sold in the US, so there is no marketing value to the participating automakers.
Bob Smith
5th November 2005, 20:32
Also, most of the cars represented in the WRC are not sold in the US, so there is no marketing value to the participating automakers.
Yes I noticed that the top scoring teams this last season were French cars that aren't sold in the U.S. It's to bad it's very exciting. I wonder how Nascar drivers would do in Rally cars. It must take a big set of balls to be a navagator in one of those cars, at least when your driving your in control but the navagator has to give direction to the driver while there blowing down the road.
Bubbly
5th November 2005, 21:26
I'll don my flame suit for this but, to me and others I've talked to, WRC is to Rallying as NASCAR is to racing. WRC is nothing more than a flat out race over public roads with minimal-to-no spectator/private property protection in automobiles no one has heard of. The U.S. motor sports population does not understand nor care about the WRC nor will it attach itself to the spectacle of a brief glimpse of a loud little car sliding around a corner while the passenger appears to be reading a book.
Furthermore, the U.S. public would not tolerate the complete disregard for spectator/environmental safety or wear and tear of public roads necessitated by a WRC event.
I used to enjoy SCCA rallys back in the '60s but when I see a WRC event on T.V., all I can think is, "Keep those clowns off my roads!"
tekoah137
5th November 2005, 21:47
I love WRC and unfortunately the World part leaves out America ... but there is rally racing ... http://www.rally-america.com/ which gets Subaru support. You can also check with your local SCCA (http://www.scca.org/Rally/Rally.asp?IdS=01B2BD-A05A830&x=040|010&~=) to see if there are any events in your area.
I don't know why it's not a hit over here, aren't Rally cars the one's that invented extreme drifting??? Seems there would be alot of youth interest, especially if Honda, Toyota, Nissan and of course Mazda got involved (Ford, Mitsubishi and Subaru all have teams).
As for Focus parts in Mazda's, check out Cosworth's (http://www.cosworth.com/content.php?pageid=3&contentid=54&PHPSESSID=f71d4620bad63dd0496f0f7f74a8d976) site for Duratec 2.3 parts.
Big Ern
5th November 2005, 22:24
aren't Rally cars the one's that invented extreme drifting???
WRC is about fastest time, drifting is about "style".
Also, most of the cars represented in the WRC are not sold in the US, so there is no marketing value to the participating automakers. I don't think that is a strong argument. Isn't Ford the only marque available in Mexico????
WRC is nothing more than a flat out race over public roads with minimal-to-no spectator/private property protection in automobiles no one has heard of.
So how many spectators get injured? You are assuming the overly protective and lawsuit happy US system are the way thigs should be? I enjoy the balls-to-the-walls racing and appreciate the freedom of risk versus enjoyment that spectators and racers are allowed to make. Traditional "rallying" is about as boring as a motorsport event can get as competitors slow down to hit a checkpoint on time.
driftdevil
5th November 2005, 22:28
Bubbly must be a redneck or scared or speed. :-)
paulmx5
6th November 2005, 00:49
America last hosted a round of the WRC in 1986 at Mt Olympus, Washington State. Won by Michelle Mouton in an Audi I believe.
Cherokee Trails was the rally in TN that someone mentionned already. It was under FIA supervision and run to similar rules/route notes as other FIA and European rallies. Canada also had a potential WRC round in the Rallye Auto Charlevoix. The FIA were taking a really good look at it because it would have added another winter round to the season when it's currently only Sweden that is a full winter round (Monte often has snow/ice, but it's mostly a tarmac event).
Peugeot and Citroen are not entering factory cars next year. Suzuki is likely to step up to full WRC next year. Mitsu & Subaru make tons of $$ off the marketing of rallying since they are the only two manufacturers that seel a comparable road car to their WRC car. In the past, under Group A rules, the manufacturer was required to sell roadgoing versions of the full Group A cars (Legacy Turbo, Impreza STi 22B, Celica GT4, Lancia Delta Integrale, Mazda 323 GTR and of course, the Mitsubishi Lancer EVO series and Ford Escort Cosworth). Group N has taken the place of the former Group A where the manufacturer has to homologate the go-fast parts that are equipped to the cars. There are various parts to choose from, but all must be available through dealer channels.
Rallying likely won't take hold in North America in anything other than an enthusiast/clubman form due to liability insurance cost, lack of road availability (not lack of roads themselves) and the lack of a cohesive governing body overseeing rallying. SCCA ProRally is no longer. There are regional series linked by a national series of sorts, but not like in the past.
Rallying is driving like no other discipline out there. Takes big balls and sharp reflexes. Without the benefit of learning the track, all the corners are new (you get a slow reconnaissance pass of the roads on the Tuesday & Wednesday before race weekend and conditions can change in between and during stages). You're now seeing rally drivers crossing over to other disciplines and holding their own with the worlds best. McRae has run the Dakar and also LeMans and turned in top times in each. Sebastien Loeb ran LeMans last year and his Courage was actually leading the race at one point. Walter Rohl is now chief Porsche test driver.
Aplogies for the long post. Rallying takes a special breed of loose nut behind the wheel, as well as die-hard enthusiast spectator since rallies aren't held at a 100,000 seat stadium.
Cheers,
Paul
(March 2002 MOTM, speaking of rallying :D)
Sellout
6th November 2005, 06:29
WRC is about fastest time, drifting is about "style".
Well, if you watch a rally, you'll see that they do "drift" in and out of corners pretty often. It's kind of needed as you have to constantly throw the weight around thought tight back and forth corners with little to no traction. While it's not the D1 drifting, it's still has the same idea. Rally's a different, sometimes the fastest way though a corner isn't with the car straight.
They are AWD and very skilled so they are able to pull the cars out of the drifts pretty easily.
I love rallys. They are a blast to watch, it's just a level of being brave and insantiy mixed in with skill that is just so enjoyable.
Bill_Rockoff
6th November 2005, 09:58
I wonder how Nascar drivers would do in Rally cars.
Some of them would win, apparently... http://www.gordonline.com/archive/120202.html
- Bill
Atlanta
Miata.net NASCAR Apologist
Bob Smith
6th November 2005, 13:31
Some of them would win, apparently... http://www.gordonline.com/archive/120202.html
- Bill
Atlanta
Miata.net NASCAR Apologist
Looks like Rally driving is closer to Nascars Bootlegging roots then just driving around in circles. But AWD rally cars have little in common with the big supped up sedans that the Bootleggers used.
Bob Smith
6th November 2005, 19:58
This link show how suburu make a Rally car.
http://www.rally.subaru.com/rally/servlet/CarBuildingDetail?part=1&imageId=0
Bubbly
6th November 2005, 22:50
"Bubbly must be a redneck or scared or speed. :-)"
I am definately "or speed."
Bill_Rockoff
7th November 2005, 00:16
AWD rally cars have little in common with the big supped up sedans that the Bootleggers used.
I'm not sure I understand what that has to do with NASCAR (and AMA roadrace) drivers beating rally drivers (and F1 drivers) in a rally race using rally cars, like Jimmie Johnson, Colin Edwards, and Jeff Gordon did in 2002.
Also, rally cars weren't AWD as a rule until recent years. Lancia's Stratos (1970's) and Audi's Quattro (1980's) were ahead of the game. And they were (like NASCAR race cars) based largely on production cars, as were the original souped-up sedans of bootlegger history.
Albo
7th November 2005, 00:29
L E F T H A N D T U R N ? ?
Bryan
7th November 2005, 00:50
Also, rally cars weren't AWD as a rule until recent years. Lancia's Stratos (1970's) and Audi's Quattro (1980's) were ahead of the game. And they were (like NASCAR race cars) based largely on production cars, as were the original souped-up sedans of bootlegger history.You're half right, Bill. The Stratos was rear-wheel drive. IIRC, Lancia's first A/4WD car was the Integrale (the 036 was also RWD).
Kaworu
7th November 2005, 01:05
Rally's a different, sometimes the fastest way though a corner isn't with the car straight.
Yes - but it's nothing like drifting. Drifting slows the car down on tarmac - it doesn't speeds it up. It's rarely if EVER true and 99% of the time results in the slower lap around the track. Getting sideways on loose surfaces is mainly done to ease the turning process as well as to assist assist in braking. Braking on gravel slush rocks sand etc doesn't work as it does on tarmac for example... Getting the auto sideways tends to slow you down MUCH faster.
Driving on loose surfaces is a completely different ball game. You're right - it can definitely be faster but it's not anywhere close to the reasons people drift for.
Bob Boyer
7th November 2005, 09:29
They were shooting to get an event held around Chattanooga TN a few years ago but that fell though. I think it is primarily due to liability issues and secondly for the NASCAR mentality that pervades the country (maybe thirdly for environmental concerns)...
Actually, it was the "environmental concerns" of the National Forest Service (which, ironically, wants to allow MORE logging in the Cherokee National Forest :realmad: ) that did in the Cherokee Trails' organizers efforts to go big time. I guess they were too worried that the rally might cost them too much money for road repairs and they wouldn't have anything left for other services.
There was plenty of support and fan interest from Chattanooga through Knoxville to make it happen; in fact the tourism people were getting behind it bigtime and the crowd turnouts for the last couple of events were extremely good.
paulmx5
7th November 2005, 11:59
On the topic of WRC, the upcoming Rally Australia was won by a Mazda 323 GT-R in 1988.
Dartboy
7th November 2005, 15:26
L E F T H A N D T U R N ? ?
Turing right is not a particularly hard skill to master.
Also remember, many NASCAR drivers came up through the ranks of dirt oval racing.
Analogeezer
7th November 2005, 15:31
America last hosted a round of the WRC in 1986 at Mt Olympus, Washington State. Won by Michelle Mouton in an Audi I believe.
Cherokee Trails was the rally in TN that someone mentionned already. It was under FIA supervision and run to similar rules/route notes as other FIA and European rallies. Canada also had a potential WRC round in the Rallye Auto Charlevoix. The FIA were taking a really good look at it because it would have added another winter round to the season when it's currently only Sweden that is a full winter round (Monte often has snow/ice, but it's mostly a tarmac event).
Peugeot and Citroen are not entering factory cars next year. Suzuki is likely to step up to full WRC next year. Mitsu & Subaru make tons of $$ off the marketing of rallying since they are the only two manufacturers that seel a comparable road car to their WRC car. In the past, under Group A rules, the manufacturer was required to sell roadgoing versions of the full Group A cars (Legacy Turbo, Impreza STi 22B, Celica GT4, Lancia Delta Integrale, Mazda 323 GTR and of course, the Mitsubishi Lancer EVO series and Ford Escort Cosworth). Group N has taken the place of the former Group A where the manufacturer has to homologate the go-fast parts that are equipped to the cars. There are various parts to choose from, but all must be available through dealer channels.
Rallying likely won't take hold in North America in anything other than an enthusiast/clubman form due to liability insurance cost, lack of road availability (not lack of roads themselves) and the lack of a cohesive governing body overseeing rallying. SCCA ProRally is no longer. There are regional series linked by a national series of sorts, but not like in the past.
Rallying is driving like no other discipline out there. Takes big balls and sharp reflexes. Without the benefit of learning the track, all the corners are new (you get a slow reconnaissance pass of the roads on the Tuesday & Wednesday before race weekend and conditions can change in between and during stages). You're now seeing rally drivers crossing over to other disciplines and holding their own with the worlds best. McRae has run the Dakar and also LeMans and turned in top times in each. Sebastien Loeb ran LeMans last year and his Courage was actually leading the race at one point. Walter Rohl is now chief Porsche test driver.
Aplogies for the long post. Rallying takes a special breed of loose nut behind the wheel, as well as die-hard enthusiast spectator since rallies aren't held at a 100,000 seat stadium.
Cheers,
Paul
(March 2002 MOTM, speaking of rallying :D)
I've slowly become a big fan of WRC the last year or so....you have to be up late to see it on Speed (or set the TIVO/VCR/DVD-R) but all I can think of is that it's some sick ****, just watching it scares the crap out of me I cannot imagine actually driving like that.
It's sort of like the Mille Miglia or Targa Florio must have been like in the 1940's or 1950's.
Given how close the spectators are to the course, I'm amazed more of them don't get toasted.
It has also made me appreciate the STi and Evo, without WRC those cars would not exist, and while I realize the actual WRC cars and the street cars are pretty far part, it does seem to be the last bastion of "win on Sunday sell on Monday".
Analogeezer
davidb_uk
7th November 2005, 16:30
You're half right, Bill. The Stratos was rear-wheel drive. IIRC, Lancia's first A/4WD car was the Integrale (the 036 was also RWD).
Almost - it was a Delta, but the earlier S4 (a Group B car) that replaced the 036. When GpB cars got banned (partly due to the death of Toivonen in an S4) and GpA became the top category, they started using the Delta HF 4WD. The upgraded version of this car was the Integrale, with the wider wheel arches.
Bryan
7th November 2005, 16:45
Oops. Thank you David! I knew I'd forgotten one (and a rather important one, at that).
MikeHerbst
7th November 2005, 17:03
An old favorite:
"What if NASCAR had Co-Drivers?
... Medium Left
... Medium Left
... Medium Left
... Medium Left
... Medium Left
... Medium Left
"
paulmx5
7th November 2005, 17:49
Almost - it was a Delta, but the earlier S4 (a Group B car) that replaced the 036. When GpB cars got banned (partly due to the death of Toivonen in an S4) and GpA became the top category, they started using the Delta HF 4WD. The upgraded version of this car was the Integrale, with the wider wheel arches.
Don't forget about the sick Type 037 that followed the Stratos and 036, but before the Delta S4. Mid engine, rear drive, purpose built. Marku Alen could flog that thing around the stages like a madman.
There was a road going version of the S4 and 037 for sale on www.rallycarsforsale.net last year(companies had to produce 25 road going examples of Group B machines for homologation...I think it was only 25, might have been 50).
carguychris
7th November 2005, 18:00
Bubbly must be a redneck or scared or speed.
Actually, I've talked to rednecks who think that WRC is one of the most awesome ideas ever. :D
"Yeah, mah' friends and me do that in mah' pick-up ever' time we go to the deer lease! Cool!!" :cool:
If we want WRC in the US, we need to get rid of the safety-obsessed WASPs and the lawyers, not the rednecks. :p
paulmx5
7th November 2005, 18:09
If we want WRC in the US, we need to get rid of the safety-obsessed WASPs and the lawyers, not the rednecks. :p
LOL!!! Agreed 100%
Although at the rate that US schools are cloning lawyers, WRC fans have some tough work ahead of them ;)
Big Ern
7th November 2005, 18:25
It has also made me appreciate the STi and Evo, without WRC those cars would not exist, and while I realize the actual WRC cars and the street cars are pretty far part, it does seem to be the last bastion of "win on Sunday sell on Monday".
Check out the plate and the car. I bought mine on a Tuesday though.
paulmx5
7th November 2005, 19:00
It has also made me appreciate the STi and Evo, without WRC those cars would not exist, and while I realize the actual WRC cars and the street cars are pretty far part, it does seem to be the last bastion of "win on Sunday sell on Monday".
Analogeezer
Exactly. The latest Group N cars are even closer to the latest EVO VIII & IX and STi. The FIA Super 2000 circuit racing series follows similar rules to Group N rallying putting otherwise showroom type cars against eachother with mods of course. The key is that all these tin-top series use the stock bodyshell, motor & suspension layout as their showroom brethren.
It's a far cry from NASCAR being "stock". At least there's actually a pushrod V8, RWD car now being raced whereas ever since the demise of the T-Bird, all the showroom cars were FWD.
davidb_uk
7th November 2005, 19:27
Don't forget about the sick Type 037 that followed the Stratos and 036, but before the Delta S4. Mid engine, rear drive, purpose built.
D'oh, yeah, that's actually the one I meant, not sure there was an 036 ;) I like the 037, but always preferred the S4, it's one of my favourite cars ever. Awesome bit of kit, I finally got to see a "proper" one run at Goodwood a couple of years ago:
In the pits (http://davidbreach.co.uk/image/displayimage.php?album=7&pos=1)
On the hill (http://davidbreach.co.uk/image/displayimage.php?album=7&pos=20)
Bryan
7th November 2005, 19:33
You're right...it is the 037...dang, I'm freaking rusty...
tekoah137
8th November 2005, 08:05
Actually, I've talked to rednecks who think that WRC is one of the most awesome ideas ever. :D
"Yeah, mah' friends and me do that in mah' pick-up ever' time we go to the deer lease! Cool!!" :cool:
If we want WRC in the US, we need to get rid of the safety-obsessed WASPs and the lawyers, not the rednecks. :p
Maybe this is indicative of why we don't want U.S. involvement in WRC ;) .
iforani
8th November 2005, 09:03
a couple things. One, i forget where it was said in this post, but nascars have no similarity with the cars the "represent". they are tube framed. have a permanently locked rear diff, and a carbd v8.
two, WRC is one of the scariest things i have ever seen in my life. there isnt a moment when i am not at least mildly stimulated, this stemming from the fact that the driver, IMHO, never ever seems to have control of the car. I say bring it to the states and let some americans experience that pleasure.
paulmx5
8th November 2005, 23:20
http://rally.racing-live.com/en/headlines/news/detail/051107210728.shtml
Rally New York is looking to be an FIA WRC event. Could be very interesting...
Big Ern
9th November 2005, 23:45
http://rally.racing-live.com/en/headlines/news/detail/051107210728.shtml
Rally New York is looking to be an FIA WRC event. Could be very interesting...
Nice! May finally give me reason to visit NY.
khorton21
10th November 2005, 03:46
Want to get involved? Most of the rallyes in the US need workers to man checkpoints, road closings, etc. Ham operators and EMT's are especially welcome.
Most of the rallyes in the US Rally championship have an easy way to sign up or get info on working the rallye. Look for WORKER links in each of the links on the page here:
http://www.unitedstatesrallychampionship.com/
I've been working the Rim Of the World rally out of Lancaster, CA and the Ramada Express rally out of Laughlin, NV the last couple of years, and it is always intersting.
I get to drive the roads in to the checkpoint and see the routes, the cars, how everything is worked out.
sclark
10th November 2005, 14:14
I attended an SCCA ProRally event a few years ago in Northern Michigan and it was one of the most fun events to watch that I've ever attended. Rhys Millen was kind enough to entertain us with a four-wheel drift on tight turn two of the hillclimb section. I'll NEVER forget that...or the cheer that went up from the crowd.
paulmx5
11th November 2005, 11:58
I attended an SCCA ProRally event a few years ago in Northern Michigan and it was one of the most fun events to watch that I've ever attended. Rhys Millen was kind enough to entertain us with a four-wheel drift on tight turn two of the hillclimb section. I'll NEVER forget that...or the cheer that went up from the crowd.
There's a crazy launch at the top of that hillclimb :D
If it's the one I'm thinking of, it's also one of the few asphalt sections of any north american rally
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